Audio and transcript of meeting with MPP Donna Skelly and HWDSB Trustees Regarding HWDSB Gender Identity Procedure 5.4, August 9, 2023
On June 16, I shared the newly updated Gender Identity and Expression Procedure on Twitter (Now X), which had been introduced to HWDSB teachers during a staff meeting a few days earlier. Prior to the release of this update, only a rather vague, Policy 5.4 titled “Equity and Inclusion” was available online for parents and the community to access.
Parents have been shocked to discover the details of the new procedure which very explicitly aims to compel speech, deceive parents, deny sex-based rights and religious rights, gender neutralize everything and further indoctrinate children into gender ideology. You can find the procedures for both staff and students here.
After receiving a number of concerns about the new procedure, MPP Donna Skelly met with HWDSB Chair Dawn Danko and trustees Graeme Noble and Amanda Ferhman on August 9th, 2023, to discuss it. The following is the audio and transcript from that meeting.
Meeting with MPP Donna Skelly and HWDSB trustees August 9, 2023
[00:00:00] MPP Donna Skelly: Parents and I'll start with, I guess the first one would be how did the board, when did you make the decision to implement policy 5.4? And how did you communicate this with parents to parents?
[00:00:15] Chair Dawn Danko: I dunno, I'll start. I think I can answer that. So I have to clarify. This is not a policy, this is a procedure.
And so while trustees set policy and we've approved our human rights policy, or I believe it's actually got a different name back in the spring that's very high level. Right. So that is, we will follow the Ontario Human Rights Code. It sets up the guiding principles for what we will do at the commitments we make as a board.
But it doesn't get into granular the details about how that happens at the school level. Procedures are set by staff. They are not approved by trustees. They're not vetted by trustees, but they flow out of the policy. So this procedure was developed by staff, trustees were informed about it and just shared the link.
We didn't have any training didn't have any needing to review it because that is not our standard process. And so there is staff training. This has not actually been implemented, or at least the new procedure hasn't been implemented and will be this fall. There's the intent to have sessions to allow families and parents to ask questions leading into the fall so that they understand what the impact may or may not be for their child and what this looks like at the school level. And if there needs to be any accommodations, if there's something that you know, they're not comfortable with, I would say the shared use of washrooms, regardless of gender or based on gender identity would be one of the concerns that I've heard from families.
Well, we do have a single use washrooms, and that may be something that can be done to accommodate someone who's not comfortable with that, but that's the plan going forward. Procedures are not something that families or the community are consulted on. We consult at the policy level, which again, I know for trustee, for, from a trustee's perspective, sometimes it's frustrating that it's so up in the clouds, pie in the sky.
Like it's not detailed. I come from healthcare where these things are, are married together, where you set a policy and a procedure. But they are unique and distinct in our world where we're a governance board.
[00:02:13] MPP Donna Skelly: Correct me if I'm wrong Dawn is the, and may I call you Dawn? Yes. Or should I call you Chair?
Okay, thank you. Please call me Donna. Does it not state on the board website it is policy 5.4?
[00:02:25] Chair Dawn Danko: No. No, it is a procedure.
[00:02:27] MPP Donna Skelly: It is a procedure. Okay.
[00:02:29] Trustee Graeme Noble: To clarify, perhaps Dawn, the procedure 5.4 or policy 5.4 is the overarching equity policy, and then the procedure that we're talking about today is the gender procedure.
[00:02:42] Chair Dawn Danko: Sorry, can you clarify that, Graham? It's 5.4 references what?
[00:02:46] Trustee Graeme Noble: So we have policies that, and then procedures fit within them, but the procedures are developed by staff and the policies are sort of approved, not sort of, they are approved by the trustees. I don't know Dawn apologies for, for jumping in there?
[00:03:57] Chair Dawn Danko: No. No. So we have like, policies that are set by the board and then procedures that fall under that. So it would be listed with the policy, but this what you're speaking about is a procedure.
[00:03:12] MPP Donna Skelly: Okay. So can we go through some of the concerns that have been raised? I know as a trustee, you're mandate is to communicate with constituents, represent their concerns and share those with the board and vice versa. One of the raised by some parents that have contacted my office was the safe and inclusive washroom change room, so we understand what is in the procedure. The safety concern potentially, and this is from a parent's perspective, potentially there could be a grade eight biological boy or girl using the opposite sex bathroom with a grade two biological girl or boy.
Nobody wants to assume the worst case scenarios, but why leave it to chance? Maybe we can address that.
[00:03:00] Chair Dawn Danko: And you know, that is actually the identical question that I've received. So I'm assuming I received the same email that's gone out to trustees and it is a fair question and concern I'm a parent with, with children in the system as well.
I would start by saying that could happen now. We don't, we don't monitor washrooms. So if someone is choosing to go into a washroom that is not theirs, that would be against the rules and they would get into trouble if they're caught. But that can happen at any time. So there is a chance that that could happen.
But if someone is identifying as, as a gender that's different than their sex at birth you know, I'm not gonna assume any kind of nefarious intent on their part. I think that should be a safe space. Again, if a family is not comfortable with that, we do have single use or gender neutral washrooms in our schools.
And so that is something that they can direct their child to use instead of the standard washroom. We cannot discriminate based on gender identity and gender expression per the Human Rights Code, the Ontario Human Rights Code specifically. And we are mandated by the ministry to follow that.
So this is a way that we are avoiding discrimination, but also accommodating if someone needs accommodation.
[00:05:14] Attendee: Can I ask a question. Are we allowed to ask questions during this or no?
No, we are not. Sorry. This is
[00:05:16] Attendee: Okay. Perfect.
Sorry.
[00:05:18] Attendee: No that's fine.
[00:05:22] MPP Donna Skelly:
But you can put questions in if you'd like to add them to the yeah.
Add them to our, our chat box, and we can hopefully get to them if possible. If not, we can follow up. And I want to say that this is really an opportunity. What I'm hoping is an opportunity where we can see more engagement between our trustees, our elected officials, and our parents. Because as a parent, I and a grandparent, I am also concerned about some of the policies.
The changes, I should say, the procedures that the board is considering and will be implementing this, this coming school year. Let's talk about confidentiality. And I think that's the one that has been raised most by parents who've contacted my office.
Why are parents being left out of this discussion?
Where is it in the Human Rights Code, and I've looked for it, that a child over the age of, I think it's 12? That parents are excluded from any of the decisions that this child tends to make or how they choose to identify while at school?
[00:06:32] Chair Dawn Danko: So this is actually something that's been in place since I was elected in 2014.
This isn't new, but it may be newly apparent, I guess as, as people are paying more attention to this procedure. And to be clear, procedures are always available online. They're just not something that people typically take time to go and read because they're very much for staff at the operational level.
My understanding if for, for that part of the procedure and what we've been doing over the past nine years is that if a student you know, identifies as a different gender would like to use different pronouns if a student wants to use a different name. In the past it was if a student perhaps identified as part of the two-Spirit LGBTQIA+ community but their family weren't aware, the school has a responsibility and the teachers have a responsibility to ensure student's safety. So if there's any question that a student may not be safe at home, if that information was shared, they cannot share it with parents and that that's part of their professional or duties. And so that isn't new.
Ideally, I think discussions with the student would, would help facilitate allowing the student to have the conversation at home. I would say from my perspective, you know, given we have requirements around this as a system and in terms of protecting student safety, if they may identify something that their parents may not agree with and there could be consequences at home.
I think the thing that we can do as trustees is make sure that parents are informed, they're informed of our practices going into this fall. And our goal is to have, you know, a series of of sessions where we can have conversations or take questions and answer them. Being mindful that we have to really do what we we have to take steps to make sure that we're not promoting hate or you know, having meetings used as a platform for hate, but there are legitimate questions that if framed appropriately that we can address. So from my perspective, making sure parents are aware of the procedure, making sure that they're aware that maybe they should be having some conversations at home about what does gender identity mean?
What, what is gender expression? How do you identify? Do you, what are your pronouns? Like asking those questions of your child and having those conversations the same way we do when we get into Sex-Ed curriculum in the upper grades, right? Like parents usually are made aware that that's part of the curriculum and they have those conversations at home because there's a, of course, an educated rule for every parent, but you know, the, again, this isn't a change in our practice.
It is just, I think, become apparent to parents that maybe weren't aware of it before.
[00:09:14] MPP Donna Skelly: Dawn, if i may, there's an awful lot of assumptions in what you're, you just articulated beginning with the fact that a child may be in danger is their safety may be jeopardized. If a parent is notified that the child is identifying as something different in class as opposed to how he or she identifies at home, who makes that determination?
I mean, if a child is caught smoking, a parent is notified, why? In something so profound are parents demonized? And why is it that they are not brought into the discussion? Why is it the default policy or procedure is that they are, that this is being withheld from them.
[00:10:00] Chair Dawn Danko: And I think I wouldn't use the term that parents are demonized.
I think we've recognize that the vast majority of families are supportive and would be open to conversations with their child. This is up to the educator and teachers or their professional capacity and their, their code of ethics. They have requirements to protect student safety, just like they are required to call CAS if they have any sense that something is happening that's you know, harmful to the student at home.
So I don't think it's. I can't speak for staff. I didn't write the procedure or approve it. But, but I think students are centered first in making sure that they are able to be their true, authentic selves at school. And if there's an ability to encourage a student to have a conversation at home, the student can determine if that is as comfortable, safe space for them.
[00:10:50] MPP Donna Skelly: But if a parent, if a teacher genuinely believes that a child's safety is at stake, is jeopardized because they are being because of their gender identity, and shouldn't then this be brought to the Children's Aid Society shouldn't this be reported, if there is a fear of safety, I mean, if you, if you're fearing that a child is going to be assaulted or harmed in any way as you just stated, that's up to the teacher to report this.
Is this, what's going to happen then if they really believe that a child's safety is at stake? Don't forget the child leaves school at 3:30, 4 o'clock. They have weekends, nights, in the summer away from the, safety, the protection of the school. Do they not identify as whatever when they go home as well?
[00:11:36] Chair Dawn Danko: And again, I can't speak to that. I think a teacher's union representative might be able to help answer that question because it's part of their professional judgment. And so I don't wanna get into an area that I'm not, I'm not an expert in. I don't wanna speculate and say something that's incorrect.
[00:11:53] MPP Donna Skelly: But could we find out for the parents who've raised it with me as to, I'm not sure the procedure you're asking me to deal directly then with the superintendent or the director of education, is that who would speak on behalf of these?
These procedural changes because this is a significant issue and it's one that parents are very genuinely concerned about why they are being, this information is being withheld from them. And I think bottom line parents want what's best for their child and will support their child and they know what's best for their child.
But to withhold this information from them is something that they're very upset about and I think they have a right to be upset.
[00:12:29] Chair Dawn Danko: It, it is a fair concern. It is something that we are going to be, you know, establishing some FAQs and opportunities for further conversations so that families can understand, again, how this may or may not impact their family or their child.
It, it is something that I think is it would be helpful to have we'll facilitate conversations, questions, and answers with staff, because again, this is in their domain. So that's something that we're planning to do here heading into the, beginning of the school year.
[00:12:58] MPP Donna Skelly: Is there any chance that any of these changes could, that changes could be brought about and that procedures could be modified?
[00:13:04] Chair Dawn Danko: So procedures. Yeah. Procedures are not set in stone. You know, they don't go through approval process the same way that a policy does. They go through, you know, a staff process where, where it is vetted at that level. But we often do see changes in procedures when required. I think you know, we do take direction from the ministry currently.
Staff feel that this follows the direction from the ministry to follow the Ontario Human Rights Code. And I know it's not explicitly stated in there. Yes, sir. But if the ministry feels that our board is overstepping that's certainly where the minister could issue a directive or a memo and certainly provide some certification for board.
[00:13:41] MPP Donna Skelly: That concerns me because you're putting this back on the ministry. This is decision by the board. If the board is making, it's not in the Ontario Human Rights Code. The other thing that isn't in the Ontario Human Rights Code is the ability for boys who identify want to identify as girls, to play girls' sports.
And there's again, a number of issues from physical safety. To the inability of girls to compete on a, what the parents believe is a fair level playing field. This is not, from what I understand in the Ontario Human Rights code. Why was the board interested? Why did the board agree to this, this particular procedure?
[00:14:25] Chair Dawn Danko: So this is actually being done in sports organizations across Canada and certainly in Ontario. The way it aligns with the Ontario Human Rights Code is we cannot discriminate based on gender identity or expression. In this case, if you identify as a gender, then you should, according to the Ontario Human Rights Code, as, as interpreted by staff and I presume legal because they, they would've had eyes on that.
We would be discriminating if someone identified as a girl and could not play a girl's sport I completely understand that there, there are concerns and that there's perhaps unintended consequences that could impact girls in particular. You know, my son plays co-ed sports and there's different rules when you're playing co-ed.
You know, he plays volleyball, so you can't. You can't spike, you can't you know, shoot, be ahead of a certain line on the court. And that's different than what he's playing strictly with, with on the boys team. And that is for safety reasons. so I completely understand those concerns. I think it's something that we'll have to continue to look at, but other organizations have been doing this for years.
[00:15:31] MPP Donna Skelly: But you've already stated that a co-ed sport has different rules. So if you've got a child who was born as a biological boy, now identifying as a female playing a sport in high school, the potential of an advantage of physical. Difference could be very dangerous for, for a girl who, especially if there's physical contact.
Are we waiting until there is an injury before we revisit this and this is just going to be accepted? And you're expecting parents to just move forward and say that they're in agreement with this policy.
[00:16:09] Chair Dawn Danko: Again, it's the procedure. At this point we are following what is interpreted as meeting the Human Rights Code and not discriminating based on gender identity.
So that is what is required of this, and that's how it's been interpreted. That is what we have to do. So again, if there's clarity on that from any level. You know, particularly it's the Ontario Human Rights Code, so it would be the provincial government. If there's clarity on that you know, that that can come to the board.
I think we do need to monitor the impacts and the way the procedure rolls out, and there may be opportunities to make adjustments, but that's all I'm able to speak to at at my level.
[00:16:50] MPP Donna Skelly: The other is about the pronouns and parents are wondering why children are being asked to even address pronouns.
[00:16:59] Chair Dawn Danko: So you'll see that I have my pronouns on screen. You know, and it's something that again, we cannot discriminate based on gender identity and pronouns are part of gender expression. And so people may have preferred, I may have a preferred nickname Dawn is my middle name. I prefer to go by that name and not my first name.
It really isn't you know, anything different than just respecting what someone would like to be referred to as, or how they would be like to be referenced. And so, you know, in this space, I have my pronouns happen to be she/her which aligns with my sex at birth and my gender. But I put those there to let people know that this is a space, or at least in conversations with me, it's a safe space to let me know your pronouns if they happen to be different from what may appear on screen. And so really this is just creating an inclusive environment where if a student has different pronouns, they can share those, and those are respected.
[00:17:53] MPP Donna Skelly: Okay. I'm getting, as you can see, I don't know if you're following the chats, but there are a number of questions that are, I don't think that the trustees are going to be able to answer, but I do get a feeling that, that parents are frustrated.
I'm still frustrated with this and I don't understand why and how a decision that has such a profound impact on children was made in isolation of parental involvement. Is there an opportunity that we can meet with parents and with who sets the procedure then at the board staff do.
Who's making who is?
[00:18:26] Chair Dawn Danko: So there would be..
[00:18:27] MPP Donna Skelly: Well when you say staff, let's…like the hierarchy.
[00:18:31] Chair Dawn Danko: So our Superintendents Associate Director would be, you know, just under the Director and then we would have system principles. We often have a team that would work on a procedure. There's often a legal review of the procedure because if we're setting out procedures that staff need to follow, of course we need to make sure that we're aligning with legal requirements as a board.
But this is all set at the staff level. Usually there's a team that works on a procedure.
[00:18:57] MPP Donna Skelly: So in your experience, what is the best process moving forward for parents to feel like they've had a voice in this because again, and it's not gonna go away, I know that I will receive a number of email and phone calls after this conversation from parents who feel, and I feel frustrated myself that there seems to be such, it's almost like it's dismissive in terms of what parents' role in this discussion, and it is such a profound discussion. How do we move forward with this? How can parents now have a say in whether or not this procedure should be implemented as it stands or whether there could be some changes?
[00:19:42] Chair Dawn Danko: That's where I think the opportunities that we're setting up heading into the new school year where questions or feedback can be shared is going to be really important. That the procedure is already established, but there may be opportunities to do refinements.
If needed or to provide clarity for parents. And again you know, my goal is always to make sure that parents are included as partners in education. I understand how people are feeling. This was rolled out for staff and was shared with the public. I think it was leaked to the public. It wasn't not available, it was online.
Like we, we do strive to be transparent and have our procedures online, but it's not typically someone would go looking for. So we sort of, you know, haven't gotten to the step where we're having those conversations and answering parental questions and making sure that parents can connect with their school.
So if they have specific concerns, they can be talking to their school about, you know, what are the implications at your school. We know that, you know, it's quite a small proportion students who are likely to identify as a different gender and choose to use that washroom for example, or that change room.
So like the impact maybe much smaller than people are anticipating. And, you know, we, we've gone through this if you'll recall, gosh, 2011, I'm thinking some of the shifts around thinking about our Two-Spirit LGBTQIA+ community and how we support them and accept them in our schools. We've come a really long way and it's taken time to get there.
And I would say those conversations were just as challenging. We're talking about Sex-Ed curriculum. You know, our health curriculum in 2014, that was a big election issue. People were afraid of it. They were worried about what it would mean for their child. They felt like they were being left out as parents.
Is this the same conversation happening again because it's something new and different. And I think as we bring people along and help them understand why this is important for this to happen, why it's important to accept everyone for who they are. I think like our students who are much more accepting of this already, I think people can move along and I understand it's gonna take time to get there and everybody wants to feel comfortable.
[00:21:56] MPP Donna Skelly: So from that, I'm gathering that this is just an exercise in futility that the decisions have been made and there really isn't going to be any sort of modified modification of the policies or procedures whatsoever, regardless parental input.
[00:22:08] Chair Dawn Danko: Well, I think parental input is important because there may be opportunities for us to clarify, to communicate to make sure that parents are included in, and understood part of the discussion so that they can understand what's happening at their school for their child. Make sure they have conversations with their child as they feel they need to about these things. So I don't see it as futile to share feedback. I think it's important that people are respectful and mindful that when you're questioning human rights you need to be mindful of how you frame that.
Because if you're framing it in terms of…
[00:22:45] MPP Donna Skelly: Well Dawn, hang on Dawn, I don't think that that's the thing. I haven't had anybody frame it in a hateful way.
Parents are just concerned that they've been left out and it's not about not wanting to embrace and accept children who have, who identify as a different sex or, or regardless of the challenge. Parents are not here to they want what's best for their child, but they feel they have been totally excluded.
And to suggest that a child who wants to self-identify as a different sex doesn't need to bring that beyond the school day, whether it's on weekends or evenings or through the school, the summer months. To exclude the parent from that could be harmful to the child.
And I think that the bottom line is this demonizing, and I really do believe that this policy demonizes parents to suggest that a parent shouldn't be told about their child's self-identifying differently at school is really, could be very, very harmful to the child. And I'm surprised that the board doesn't see that.
[00:24:01] Chair Dawn Danko: Yeah. And it's unfortunate. We've received communication and we've seen behavior that that actually is quite harmful to many people in our community that would have a different gender identity or expression or maybe transgender. So I appreciate that your emails may have been respectful and framed appropriately, but we've certainly received a number that are not so that's where we need to make sure that we're allowing the conversation, allowing the questions.
But we're doing what we can to mitigate and minimize the risk of harm to those in our community that we're trying to support through this. At the end of the day, it is our job to uphold human rights and through the Ontario Human Rights Code, we cannot discriminate based on gender identity or expression.
So how that's interpreted, you can see that in the procedure. I think there, there may be some wiggle room, there may be some adjustments, but this is happening across school boards. Across Ontario because we're required...
[00:24:51] MPP Donna Skelly: Not always.
[00:24:53] Chair Dawn Danko: If you look at different school boards, like differences, but they, they are taking steps to make sure they're not discriminating based on gender identity and expression.
[00:25:03] MPP Donna Skelly: But they're not excluding parental knowledge. the parents are still told about the policies and again, I guess I have to go back to the one thing that, that surprises me and that is that a parent, I mean, do you not see the potential harm in not telling a parent? I mean, you're telling a parent if he's caught smoking, but you're not telling the parent if he or she wants to identify as a different gender.And there's no...
[00:25:28] Chair Dawn Danko: As a parent I appreciate that concern. I do. Because if that came to me in my household, I know that it would be a supportive space. But again, that goes, that, that's a piece that as a trustee I can't really speak to because it goes to professional judgment at the teacher level. I think the important conversation that would need to happen is, Have you let your parents know?
Are you comfortable letting your parents know? If they're not comfortable there may be a reason for that, and that that just could be that the child you know, like I can't speak to why a child may not be comfortable. It may not be worried about risk of harm, but that is something that the board has said.
Not the board as the trustees, but the organization through the procedure is saying we need to respect the wishes of the child. But I think those, those conversations and encouraging a child to share this with their parents or find out if they're comfortable sharing with the parents is part of what teachers would do.
And again, they're going to use a professional judgment to do that. But again, I can't speak to what they feel their requirements are through their profession because there are specific requirements.
[00:26:32] MPP Donna Skelly: Do you know why the age 12 was used? It's not an adult. So I mean, if a child, as I said, if a child is caught with drugs or caught even skipping school, the parents are notified, but they're not notified in this particular case.
Why the age of 12?
[00:26:49] Chair Dawn Danko: One, I think it's important to distinguish between people's actions and people's identity. Like those are two different things. Right. So telling someone about someone's actions is different than, than, you know, they're talking about their identity, but 12 typically is considered an age where they can accept a vaccination.
They, as long as a child is considered mature enough to make decisions, even in healthcare, there is not an age where parents can make decisions in terms of a child's treatment, for example. You know, it used to be that we'd say, well, they've gotta be 16, but there is actually not an age.
It depends on their mental capacity and their ability to make decisions. So typically we saw through Covid for vaccines around the age of 12, they're considered to be mature enough to make that decision and the practitioner, the nurse, for example, would have to make that judgment. Does this child, are they at the average maturity level for their age?
But a child as young as 10 could be considered mature enough to make that decision. Whereas in other cases, they may be older. So I think that's just an average age, and that's what we see used in healthcare as well. It's not, it's not a requirement legally.
[00:28:00] MPP Donna Skelly: But you're asking a teacher to make ann assumption or a judgment on a, on a healthcare decision. Dawn, mind you...
This isn't a healthcare decision, right? This,
[00:28:11] Chair Dawn Danko: This, this is I was using that as an example of where age is used. But Graham, go ahead.
[00:28:17] Trustee Graeme Noble: Donna, I just wanted to ask a follow up question. But I'm hearing sex and gender used interchangeably, which I would love to have a conversation about that.
Even in itself. But I'm wondering if if a child who is about 12/13 doesn't matter were to in confidence tell their their teacher that they're gay, would they, what would you suggest would be the next step for that?
[00:28:44] MPP Donna Skelly: Me?
[00:28:45] Trustee Graeme Noble: Yes. Would, should you.
[00:28:47] MPP Donna Skelly: I'm not a, I'm not a professional. I'm, I'm simply here to advocate on behalf of parents to have a role and a say.
I'm not. I have, I am not suggesting for a second that I have the answers. What I'm sharing is parents' frustration with their lack of involvement in any of this. And this is a big, big concern with the parents who've reached out to me. I am suggesting that this was done without parental involvement, and I think that should change.
I think that parents need to be part of this, this whole process. They don't know how this was arrived at. It was just, it was just leaked to parents and now they're going into a school year trying to understand all these changes. But that's the issue. I don't know how that would be dealt with, but let's find out from people who have perhaps better understanding of their own, of their children.
And there's another thing, I don't know what's best for your child. I think parents know what's best for their children and they should be able to articulate that and be able to have a say in what's going forward and something that is so profound when it comes to their child's health and identity.
[00:30:10] Trustee Graeme Noble: Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and I think you're totally right, and as Donna has pointed out, I think there's, there is some, been some communication on our normal channels of communication through the website and everything, but it's not as overt as perhaps what people are looking for, talking about.
[00:30:25] MPP Donna Skelly: It was, it was rarely.
I mean, it was, they just found out about it, let's be honest. And if it was communicated through a posting on a website that didn't involve a lot of parental in, you know, discussion. So the bottom line is we're probably not in agreement on, on a lot of the changes. And I, and my basic intent from this, this discussion was to see if there is a path forward to have parents talk about their concerns.
And the other thing that hasn't been raised is religious rights. And that is another issue that's being raised in by constituents as well. They feel that their religious beliefs have been sidelined. So I think that there's ann opportunity and a need for much more discussion before the board moves forward on this, on this procedure. And I'm hoping that perhaps Dawn, we can facilitate something and Graham, we've met with parents, Amanda, with, with the parents and our constituencies so that they feel at the very least, that they've had some input in this.
[00:31:29] Chair Dawn Danko: Right. And may I oh, go ahead, Amanda.
[00:31:32] Trustee Amanda Ferhman: Sorry. Sorry, Dawn. If I could just offer a little bit of information regarding the communication piece because I think that a little bit.
I had concerns with the communication piece myself. So when I reached out to board staff to to ask about it, this actually was not a new procedure. It was an updated procedure. So I think that's where everyone is losing focus of this being new, new, new. It was an updated procedure and that's where the communication piece. I think the disconnect about that is the procedure existed, it was just updated. Dawn if you could correct me if I'm wrong on that, but that's the information given by staff.
[00:32:19] Chair Dawn Danko: It's correct. But there, there are new elements. The you know, I understand parents' concerns and questions, and I think, you know, the only way that we move forward together is to receive feedback, have those conversations, and look at areas where maybe there are adjustments.
Again, that's not something that, that trustees drive or approve, but the missing piece is the communication with parents. Unfortunately, the timing of this there was a staff training session that happened at the end of June at the end of school year, and the intent is to have parent engagement sessions leading into the school year so that they can understand it.
That is how we normally rule out any change in our system, is we start with staff and then we, they, then we work with the community to make sure that they understand, you know, any potential impacts for them. So that, that still is the plan. And I apologize to families, you know, to have this gap over the summer where you received this information that's not normally how we would share it out with the community.
Like I said, it, it was leaked. That's fine. We're not hiding it, but I, you know, having this gap in time where the conversations aren't able to happen or the questions and feedback haven't been addressed, I think is part of the challenge. So we completely respect that. You know, I've been gathering the questions and feedback and intend to bring that to staff.
And again, we hope to have sort of smaller sort of local opportunities for smaller conversations because I think the conversation piece is the important piece, right? Where we can have some dialogue about this, really understand the concerns, and in some cases maybe allay those concerns or in other cases talk about if you need accommodation for your child, this is what it looks like.
Or if you need to have a religious exemption for something, this is what it looks like. Although noting that's usually related to curriculum this is just making sure that we're trying to create the most inclusive, supportive spaces for our students and staff in our system.
[00:34:19] MPP Donna Skelly: But realistically, when it comes to religion, there would be religious exemptions if you're talking about boys and girls. Or I mean, well, yeah, or I...
[00:34:25] Chair Dawn Danko: and like change rooms, washrooms, those are the types of things that we, we really need to think about. And if I could you know, I didn't know that this was a topic that we were gonna be talking about until just before the meeting, so I thought we were gonna be talking about, you know, our, our ability to support capital projects like a new school in Watertown. Please, please, yes, and I'll be, and I'd love to do an update on that as well because I've been lobbying hard. What my question about that, if we could even transition to that because Graham and I had an opportunity, we kind of stumbled upon each other in an unintentional way and I'm met a number of the parents
who were taught who are.
[00:34:59] MPP Donna Skelly: Pushing for that school. And I am pushing, I've already had a meeting with the Minister of Education, a meeting with the minister the Treasury Board president about this. But from the board's perspective, I'll need them to make it a priority project. One of the big issues right now with the ministry is the cost, as you know, the cost, the escalating costs of building new schools.
We could build 30 schools for the price of 15 today. And that's one of the reasons we've made. And we've had a number of parents who actually have worked with this, with these new modular kinds of schools that they're building. But I am pushing for that school and I would like the board, you know, maybe we'll work
hand in club in making sure that it is a priority. I've already raised it just,
[00:35:43] Chair Dawn Danko: And I think related to, you know, our, our infrastructure, one of the key pieces that I see, and again, I really want to just thank people for, for listening and for bringing forward their questions and concerns. I don't wanna invalidate any of them because trust me, I'm a parent too.
As I'm going through, I'm thinking, okay, if my children were younger, how would I think and feel about this? And so, I really do understand where, where people are coming from and having their child. You know, front and center in their thinking. But one of the things that would be helpful is having funding that allows us to update our infrastructure to move away from washrooms that, that are shared spaces or that don't have, you know, ceiling to floor stalls.
Like we, we already know that we have some issues in washrooms. They're not supervised spaces for good reason. But that can lead to some challenges. And so, you know, being able to think about how schools are built differently, how schools can be, their infrastructure can be updated. That takes money, that takes some, some planning.
But I think we, we have to start thinking about what, what that kind of infrastructure looks like to be more inclusive. And so that we, we aren't trying to create solutions with, with the old infrastructure that we, that we've inherited.
[00:36:59] MPP Donna Skelly: Yeah, O of course. And I mean, you have an envelope and we've, I can pull up the amount of money that, how much money did.
We actually forward to the board last year. If you could find that for me. It was a significant amount money. It's up to the board. To determine how they want to allocate those funds. And as I said, in terms of building new schools, we're looking at a more cost effective approach with a modular schools so that when we do have to expand, it's much easier than bringing in portables.
They. They can kind of piecemeal it and the flow is better and it's far more energy efficient as well. So less costly to operate, but the board still has to determine how that that money flows. And there has been a significant amount of money that was allocated to the board. I'm seeing funding for more EAs.
That was one of the big issues that was raised at the, and Graham and I spoke about it. You know, how does the board determine why one school gets EAs and another school doesn't? Again, perhaps we could have a conversation about that in our next meeting. And perhaps maybe that's what the result of this is let's have a further discussion about the policy or the procedure with policy 5.4, the new procedures, and perhaps even the allocation of funds and where the new schools are going to be.
And because Waterdown, and actually my riding is probably seeing the greatest growth in all of Hamilton. And so we do need more schools.
Binbrook has already been, I think we have, we're we're bringing two schools there and one in Upper Stoney Creek, so, but when it comes to the EAs, that was an issue that was raised and trying to figure out why some schools get more EAs than other.
And Graham, you're more familiar with that whole story than I'm, if you wanna jump in.
[00:38:46] Trustee Graeme Noble: Yeah, there's I think really there's just some questions about allocation processes and whether or not. I have some questions about whether or not our allocations are, are strongly dependent on the funding that we have rather than perhaps on the needs.
Which it's also to be considered, but there's also the important difference in what is apparent need versus what the allocations are. And I'm not a professional, so those assessments are not for me to make necessarily, but I think. It doesn't take a news article to see. But I"ll pass it over again.
[00:39:25] MPP Donna Skelly: So Dawn, I think moving forward, if we could probab, if you could keep me in the loop and perhaps we could send out another invitation to the parents and have a more another discussion before the school year or perhaps just as we go ahead into the new school year with addressing some of these concerns.
And also you and I can perhaps even offline if you could share with me what, excuse me, what the board is really looking for in the next year and especially in my riding. And I have, as I said in an update, I will keep you posted on my conversations with both the Minister of Education and the Treasury Board president.
[00:40:03] Chair Dawn Danko: Absolutely. And we always welcome the opportunity to meet and have the conversations right, and to talk about the questions. I don't have all of the answers. Right. But I think it's important that we're, we're gathering and as you say, it's our role as well as yours to bring constituent concerns forward.
So I do wanna reassure parents that, that trustees are gathering that information. We are feeding it through to staff. It. That awkward time when a lot of people are on vacation. So it's hard to have you know, that ongoing robust communication at our level with staff. But people are, are returning because we, we do have a lot more staff back for the last few weeks of August.
So this is an ongoing conversation that we're having as well. And really looking for those opportunities for parents to have, and families to have. Conversations with the board, with their school. And I think it's really helpful when those conversations happen in smaller settings at the school level because that's where you can really understand what is it going to look like in this school and what are the scenarios that we may encounter and how might I be informed if x, y, or z is happening.
Or you know, when would I not be informed, but I could maybe ask questions at home so that I'm making sure I've got open dialogue with my child. Just getting clarity on all of those things, and again, gathering that feedback to see are there some areas where maybe that the procedure's very rigid and we need to look at it being more flexible.
[00:41:33] MPP Donna Skelly: Perfect. I look forward to updating our listeners this morning and in a future meeting. And I wanna thank Graham, Amanda, and Dawn for taking part in this. I know these are tough decisions, tough discussions, but I really appreciate you participating in this meeting and all of the parents that joined us.
And Don and I will be in touch and send invitations out for future meeting, hopefully at the beginning of the school year. Thank you all and have a safe summer.
[00:41:59] Chair Dawn Danko: Thanks, Donna
[00:41:59] MPP Donna Skelly: Take care. Bye-bye.
[00:42:02] Trustee Graeme Noble: Take care.